From Corporate Burnout to Purpose-Driven Work: Emma Foran’s Journey of Resilience, Inclusivity, and Fulfillment

In this heartfelt and inspiring episode, Emma Foran takes us on her journey of self-discovery, career transformation, and personal growth. From her early aspirations to be an actor to navigating unfulfilling corporate roles, Emma shares how she found her true calling in social care and her current role as an Employment Officer at Down Syndrome Ireland.

Emma reflects on the invaluable lessons she learned growing up alongside her aunt, who has Down Syndrome, and how it shaped her compassionate outlook on life. She discusses the challenges of leaving stable corporate jobs to pursue meaningful work and the joy she now finds in empowering adults with Down Syndrome to thrive in employment.

Emma also opens up about the importance of living authentically, the struggles of societal expectations, and her evolving relationship with social media. With warmth and honesty, Emma reveals how embracing her passions has brought her a deep sense of purpose and fulfillment.

If you’ve ever questioned your career path, struggled with conformity, or sought inspiration to make a meaningful change, this episode is for you.

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Transcript

Emma Foran Transcript

Emma, thank you so much for joining the podcast today. Thank you for having me, Phil. Can I take you back to when you were a kid? What did you want to be when you were growing up? When I was growing up, I wanted to be an actor, ironically enough.

I think I wanted to be 10 different things in one year all the time. Why is that ironic? Because there's a lot of actors in my family and yeah, I probably didn't have the patience to stick it out and do it. But did you try it? Yeah, yeah, I did.

Yeah, yeah, I never had. I think maybe it might have been a patience thing. Like there's a lot of patience in being an actor and I didn't have it.

So like you have to, it doesn't happen overnight naturally or even like even in a year. So for me, when I did, I was trying it. I was like, I wanted to move out.

I wanted to go travel and I wanted all these things. So I was like, I'm just going to have to work a normal job to get the money to go and do it. So I didn't have the patience to wait to be successful.

What were you like as a kid? The exact same as I am now. Literally, there's no difference. I feel like I was, like in school, I never got in trouble really.

But like I also was very like outspoken, but not in like a cheeky way. Like I wouldn't be, like if a teacher said something to me, I wouldn't be cheeky to them. But I'd probably be a bit of a smart arse.

But I never got in trouble around them. Were you principled? Was I principled? Did you have principles as a kid? Did you? Oh yeah, I think always really like, like, so I grew up with my aunt in my home with me who has Down syndrome and she and I shared a room. So I always grew up sort of caring, not care, she didn't need a carer in any way.

But like, it was like, I cared about her. And she obviously, you know, is a person with special needs, but I didn't see it that way. So I always kind of grew up being mindful, genuinely mindful of other people and different people's needs and things like.

So I just always kind of was always wanting everything to be good and everyone to be good and to kind of look, make sure that everyone's needs were met. So you're looking out for people from a young age? Yeah, I think so. What was it like living with your aunt? With Gay, her name is Gay, Gabriel.

It was amazing. I never, I didn't see, I didn't, and like for Ireland as well, there was no, like for kind of then, and I'm learning this now from working with Down syndrome Ireland, we would have been different to a lot of families. Like she was at everything, went everywhere.

She had a job. And so I didn't see any difference to her, to any of the rest of my family. Like it was the same, you know, it was just like we shared a room.

So we would argue about that. Like it was just like having a sister. Yeah.

And I loved everything about her, you know, like with adults with Down syndrome or people with Down syndrome, like self-talk. So they talk to themselves quite a lot. So that's, you know, totally normal.

And it's how they sort of make sense of the world. And I remember listening and hearing her always chatting away to herself. And I'd be like, what? You know, and now I know that.

And, you know, it's, unfortunately, she doesn't do it anymore. She's in her late fifties now and she has dementia. So when it's gone, you know, you miss it.

So growing up like that, you know, I just think I am so lucky that I grew up in a home where somebody had special needs, additional needs, because it made me be so much more open to people and not being afraid of people. And also kind of thinking like, you know, my mom was always like wanting us to kind of just do what we wanted to do to be happy. And because she was, my mom is the eldest daughter of, I think there's eight of them or something.

And then Gabriel's the youngest. So she was the kind of like the mother really to all her brothers and sisters. So she was real chill with us, like me and my brother.

Always was like, just do whatever you want to do to be happy. Like almost probably too chill. She's a bit of a hippie.

That was just the way it was brought up. Nothing was ever really serious. Like we never really got in big trouble.

Like when I was about 16, I was like hanging around Central Bank, you know, like with the hoodies on. I wanted to be a rocker. I wanted to dye my hair black, paint my room black.

And she was like, lovely. Yeah, I'm a gorgeous, like didn't care. Like I didn't do any of it, but I wanted to.

And she brought me into like Asha. You know, do you remember Asha in Stephen's Green, the like rocker shop? I think it might be on the top floor. And like I got all my Christmas clothes in there.

Like I had like a pentagram and like chains at like Christmas dinner where all this big like, she just didn't care. She was like, you do you, you know, like, so I think the house that I grew up in was very open to just doing whatever you want to do and expressing yourself. Even if, you know, it wasn't the norm, you know, like my friends and stuff would have been.

Their parents were very like, you know, study for the junior and the leaving cert and da da da. And whereas my parents were like, as long as you're not like doing a major, you can, you can, you know, sit at the Christmas dinner table with, you know, pentagram and quarantine on the scratch. So yeah, so we were, we were lucky the way we grew up.

So in a lot of ways, but with Gabriel definitely won. And then with my mom letting me just be a little weirdo, she didn't care. So when you, when you finished school and you could do whatever you wanted to do, what did you do? I got lots of tattoos and I got a piercing in my face.

That's the first thing I did. And, but yeah, I want, when I left, I wasn't great in school. I went to two different schools.

I went to one from first to third year and then I moved to a different school. I knew nobody. Just walked in to our ladies in third or fourth year and I didn't know anybody, which when I think about it now, as an adult, I'm like, what? Like, I can't believe I did that.

I wasn't great yet at school. I got, I think I got like 310 in my Leaving Cert, which was like amazing for me because I didn't even do my mocks, which is a whole other story. But I knew I wanted to do social care.

I knew that was what I wanted to do and that I was going to be some sort of, you know, in that realm. I never wanted to do anything else really. Like there was still a bit of that.

Do I go into acting? I was acting as well at the time, but I wanted to move. I wanted, I was 18 and I wanted to be 35. So I was like, okay, how am I going to get there? So I started, I went to college and I did social care.

And then when I finished, I started working as a, I cared for a little boy with autism for his mother. So I used to take him and her, she was a single parent and she, you know, kind of did whatever. And I would mind him.

I'd be like rolling around on the ground when I'm playing cops and robbers, like bring him into town, like loved it. And then I was working in a school then for children with special needs, not just autism, like all different types of special needs. And I was sort of thinking like, where is this going to go? Like, I was like very like, I don't know, I'm a bit young like for this.

Like I think, I thought, I think I just wanted to have a bit more crack than I was having. It's very heavy. And I was like, do you know what? I'm going to just park this now and go and work somewhere else and have the crack.

And that's what I did then. So I just ended up working in like aircom, in like sales for like three years. And just, and I did like, I had the crack, like went out all the time, was out after work.

And that was sort of what I wanted my twenties to be. And I was always like, when I'm 30, I'm going to go back. I'm going to be a social worker.

I'm going to do all the meaningful stuff when I'm 30. That was always what I said. And then I ended up going from one corporate job to the next until it ate away at my soul.

Then eventually I did do what I said I'd do. Yeah, I kind of went round the houses to get to where I am now, yeah. And when you're doing the corporate jobs, how did it feel? Like you say it ate away at your soul, like what does that feel like on a day-to-day basis? I always knew that I wasn't in the right setting, like the right industry.

I always knew that. And I, but I was kind of like, right grant, like I get where I need to be eventually. But when I was like, say from like Hayes, maybe onwards, where you're surrounded with a lot of hardworking people who really care about what they're doing and the numbers on the board and the money and all this kind of thing.

And that, and I'm, and I don't care about that. I'm like, yeah, but are we all happy? Like, are we all having a good day? That's what I cared about. I'm like, I think she's stressed.

I'm going to go and have a chat with her. And like, that's what I cared about. So it was like, it was at the time, I didn't realize that being surrounded by people that were really hardworking and really successful.

And I wasn't that, it kind of made me feel like shit to be honest, because I was like, well, why am, why don't I care? Like I could be making all this money and having these numbers on the board and getting the things in the town hall or whatever. So I actually felt a little shit, but I didn't realize that I was just in the wrong job. But at the time it was like, you know, I think it was when I was moving into adulthood really.

Like I'd moved, I was 23. I just moved out of home. So I was like trying to be someone I kind of wasn't, but it felt crap to be honest.

It really felt like I was in the wrong place. But why couldn't I figure it out? Like just, you know, why wasn't I as successful as all these other people? So yeah, it wasn't a nice feeling. And that, I went against it instead of just being like, because you're in the wrong job.

And that took me from the age of 23 till the age of 31 to figure out, which was crap like, yeah, bad. Yeah. As obvious as it sounds now, it wasn't blatant then.

No, no. Because like everyone around me was all like, and now in saying that, like, I mean, I loved, so if we're just talking strictly that like haze, right? So recruitment, whatever. It was a very like, it was a nice environment for a young person, you know? Like we had a lot of crack as you know, it was a lot of fun.

There was a lot of goings on. It was like, it was deadly stuff. And I tried to make the most of it.

Like every job that I ever had, I would meander my way into doing other stuff that had nothing to do with the job. So I'd either be on some little group organizing nights out or like, you know, doing the new office. Like, so I got myself into all those little things so I could fulfill some little internal, I'm doing good for the people, you know? Whereas where, you know, James might be like to me, yeah, but you haven't placed anyone.

I'm like, yeah, but none of them people really wanted the jobs. Like, so it's not really a big deal. And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, this is what we do.

So it was like, I was like, yeah, but they're happy. Or it was just, I just, yeah, it was, I think I was just the person, I don't know how I lasted that long there, but I think I was a personality higher. I was trying to fill that kind of, I don't know whether it's a need or whatever, but to be like a positive person almost.

Like, you know, if there was somebody new on the team, like Emma Murphy, she always like, me and her are still super close. And like, she's always like, when she first started on our team, like she didn't want to be there. She was supposed to be in Australia.

Something happened with her flight. And she's like, but you like latched on, wouldn't leave me alone. Cause you knew that I was like having a bad day or whatever.

So that was my thing. Recruitment, not so much. But then I ended up going, obviously I left Hayes to go traveling.

And travel I did. And then when I got back, obviously then a lot of stuff changed. And I was like, what do I do? Where do I go now? In my head, I was like, I want to work for a tech company.

I, if I have to work and if I have to be doing X, Y and Z, then I'm going to work somewhere that's going to give me a free laptop and going to give me all the bells and whistles. Like if I have to do it, then that's what I'm going to do. So, and there was a time where I like, believe it or not, I was like, will I go back to Hayes? But yeah, obviously James passed away then.

So then that changed. But that was after you came back from traveling, was it? Yeah. So the day, so I got back from traveling and I was, didn't know what I was going to do.

And the, I went for an interview with Indeed and I didn't really like the sound of it. And I was meeting James that, like I came out of the interview with Indeed and was meeting James that morning. And that was the day that he passed away.

And I was due to meet him to talk about, will I go back to Hayes or will I go for Indeed or whatever? And that was the day. So anyway, I ended up taking the job at Indeed because I was, I couldn't do another interview anywhere else because I was obviously, you know, we were all in bits. And I wanted to be close to you guys as well because they were just up the road because of all the stuff that was going on.

So there's loads of reasons that I took that job. But- When you're working at Hayes in a job that you weren't doing the actual job, you were there for the, to be around people, it sounds like. Well, I can say that now.

I mean, at the time, I'm sure it was a problem. I must have been doing something. But I mean, when I think about it now, it was, it wasn't, I wasn't like, oh my God, I absolutely love this job and I'm having the best time ever.

But you obviously were so close to James and it hit you that hard. Oh, well, James for me was like, like, yeah, like James and I, James was like my big brother. Like, and I think like he, the thing was that he knew as well that I struggled in the job in Hayes and he knew that I felt the way I did.

Like, why can't I just get it together? Like, I don't understand why I'm, but he always was like, you're a grant. You're great. Like, you're doing fine.

Like, just keep going. Like he, when I thought he'd be like, you know, yeah, maybe you should just like go and do something else. He never did.

He was just always like, no. Like, I think he just was like a very positive male person in my life. He was like, you know, when I had any, like, I remember even when I was traveling, like I was having problems and I was traveling.

I was like, I think I'm going to come home. And he was the one I was talking to. And he's like, nope, you stay where you are.

So he was just like so important. And it was, and I think I stayed in the job as well because he was just great. Like, he was just a really good friend and he encouraged me rather than being like, yeah, you should probably leave.

So that was why I was meeting with him that day. When ultimately you decided that the corporate life wasn't for you, what was the kind of tipping point? So I went from Hayes to Indeed, then to another job. And the last, well, the second last corporate job I was in, again, got me with all the bells and whistles.

Like, you know, there was a lot of traveling. But for that job, there was a piece of me that was able to kind of be in that sort of helping people position. But it kind of got down to it then when COVID hit and we're all just at home with the bare sort of bones of our job.

It wasn't like, you know, you weren't in a fancy office anymore. I wasn't traveling anymore. It was me and a laptop.

And I had to be on that laptop for six hours of the day. Call after call after call. It became, I kind of saw it more then as just a numbers game.

You know, it was more of you have to be stuck on this laptop now. And if you don't do six calls every day and meet all these numbers and all these KPIs, then, you know, you're whatever it was. I don't even remember.

But I just remember thinking, God, is this it? Like, am I going to have to just be sitting on this computer forever? Just trying to do a call and get somebody across the board, onboarded just to meet a number when they probably need extra help and all. It just was, everything was going against my own values. And I could see then that that's what it was all about.

So I just thought, I can't do this anymore. So, and I tried, I went to my manager and I kind of spoke and I said, look, this job isn't, you know, the parts of it that I loved have been taken away. I don't get to meet with people face-to-face anymore.

I don't get to sit in a room like we used to do training face-to-face with customers sort of across Europe. And I loved that. I'd see someone struggling with something.

I'd be able to sit and help them and whatever. And then it just became, you know, just me on a laptop all day and I just couldn't do it. And they kind of were like, well, tough, like there's really nothing else.

And when I looked at it, there wasn't that and else. Actually, if I looked at that company or any other company, you can either be a customer success manager or some derivative of that, which is all when you break it down, you're sitting on a laptop and you're taking calls and trying to upsell, cross sell all this. And I just thought, Jesus, like I can't sell to someone who doesn't need something anymore.

So that was it. It was COVID anyway, when I realized what my job was. So I just, it was starting to affect my mental health.

I started hating going to work and my cousin was working from home with me and she was like, I'm sick listening to you. She was like, every time before you get onto a call, you do this deep breath thing. I was like, what? And she's like, like, you really have to hype yourself up before you get in a call.

Because all our calls were like an hour. So she's like, I'm sick listening to you. I'm in there going, right, you know, this kind of before I got the call.

And I was like, yeah, I just can't. I hated going to work. And all it was, was me in my house.

It's like, how do I hate going to work when it's literally just opening a laptop? And no one really understood it because obviously the money is amazing. They throw everything at you, you know, like, and it was, it was really great. So a lot of people didn't understand.

It's like, how can you give up a job that has ridiculous salary for what you're doing and you can do it from home and, you know, there's free this and free that and whatever. But like, for me, it was really, there was no fulfillment. There was no interaction with people.

It was just all very meaningless to me. And like, I kind of had a bit of that same feeling where it was like, I was almost envious of other people who could just do their calls and get the money and get the salary and get the bonus. And I'm like, why can't I just do it? I'd have 10 houses by now if I hadn't just been able to keep it.

But I, there was just something in me that was like, it's just not meaningful enough for me. So I just quit. I had to, it took me about a week going over and back and over and back.

And like, they knew that I wasn't happy. They weren't really, and to be fair, you know, I had a lovely team. It was a lovely company, but they were like, you can do calls all day with this job title or do calls all day with this job title.

But either way, it's the same. So I just was like, right, whatever. So I just quit.

During COVID? Yeah, I just left. It was the best thing I ever did. And like, it's like three years ago now, but I couldn't possibly do or sit in another team meeting where they're talking about stuff that I just didn't think was important to the world, especially when what was going on at the time.

So many people were scared and sick and like the anxiety, like, and I had loads of people who worked there, like coming on calls, like not like work calls, but just jumping on a Zoom with me and tears about the stress they were under. And I was like, everyone's coming to me with all this but they're not doing anything about it. It was just all wrong.

Nothing was sitting well with me. So anyway, I did leave during COVID and I didn't even try and get another job. In the corporate sort of world, I was like, I need to take a break.

And that was when then I ended up working in a coffee shop with my dog for like six months. I was managing two small coffee shops in Walkingstown. And it was great because I needed that, I needed to be out in the world, chatting to people.

And like, I got offered a job, like when people were chatting away to me, there was like some lady wanted me to come and work for like some hotel, whatever. But like, I started to feel like myself again. I was like, right, back out in the world, you know, it's not all meaningless.

And like, I can listen to people and talk to people and build relationships that matter rather than talking about like, how many clicks did the thing on the website get? Like, I don't care how many clicks. I really don't care. So I did that for six months.

And then the fear got me. The fear of not having the big job and the money and this and that. And I was like, oh God.

And I panicked and I went back. I went back. So I got a job with an Irish company as a customer success manager, like disgusting.

And it was almost as if like the universe was like, yeah, you think this is, you're gonna go back to this, are you? Watch. And it was the worst six months. Like I had the worst time.

It was so bad. Like I had the worst manager on the planet, which I'd never had before. Like I'd never worked with a bad manager.

And she just blatantly didn't like me, told me she didn't like me, like literally told me she didn't like me. And it was just brutal. And I quit that job.

And then they ended up being like, blah, blah, blah. Like, we'll change all of the things about your job if you stay. And again, the fear.

And like, I remember like, anyway, I was like, yeah, okay, fine. So I stayed. And I remember like crying so hard because I was like, I hate this.

I hate it so much. And how am I ever gonna do anything else? Like, maybe it's me. Like, maybe I'm the problem.

Like, maybe I just, I'm a bad employee. Like, I don't understand. I remember crying so hard because I was like, how am I gonna get out of this? What am I ever gonna do? How do I go from, you know, having a certain amount of money coming in? Like I live by myself in my house.

So it's just me. So it was all this fear. And I was like, I'm gonna have to be a bloody customer success manager forever.

And I'm gonna be depressed forever. And eventually I was like, no, no, I'm not. So I quit that job as well.

And that was fantastic. And then- What kind of impact is all that having on your kind of day-to-day? It was so bad. Like my mental health was in bits.

And I think a lot of people around me didn't get it. Like, because it's like, but you're, all you have to do is like sit on these calls and that's it. Like, what is the big deal? I'm like, a part of me was like, I know.

Like, what is the big deal? Like, why can't I just do it? But I knew it was literally like swimming upstream. Like I was in the wrong place. I was doing the wrong thing.

And I knew I had all these things within me. Like, I don't know whether it's like, almost like a talent or whatever. It's like having something that I knew I could do.

I was like, I could really be doing something amazing with people that I care about or doing something that I care about rather than, and I'm really only doing this for the money. That was it. There was nothing else.

People weren't nice. The customers weren't nice. The, nothing was nice.

It was just to feel safe. And that I think is a very common thing in Ireland. Like, well, you can't complain about having a job.

Aren't you lucky you have a job? And isn't that great? And you don't quit a job unless you have another job to go to. And, you know, that, and again, me being lucky with the way that I was brought up, my mom and my dad were like, quit the job. Forget about it.

You'll never be, you know, hungry or homeless or whatever. So it doesn't matter. Like you quit that job.

But everyone else around me was like, sure, you can't just leave. And especially then when it was getting to, it was the second time then that this was happening. Some people were like, oh, here she goes again.

Like, and it was all that kind of like needing to conform to just being happy to have a job and being happy that, you know, you can work from home. Whereas on the inside, I was like, I hate this. I actually hate this.

I'm so unhappy. But everybody is kind of being like, you're so like ungrateful almost, was like the way people were treating it. So I had to sort of push past all that and be like, well, it's about me.

And, you know, people can, people change careers all the time. And people like, what am I going to wait another five years for or whatever? When all the signs are there that I'm in the wrong place. Yeah, yeah.

That one time, like that time when I'm saying like that, I remember crying with my cousin and she was just like, she just kept saying, now is the time. Like now is the time. Like you need to get out of this and get into social care or whatever.

Like my mother is a social worker. Chloe is my best friend, my cousin. She's a therapist.

So like everyone who's super close to me is in that sort of caring realm. And I just needed to be in it as well. So eventually I did quit.

But like, I definitely got a bit of like, roll in the eyes from some people that were like, oh, for God's sake, like everybody hates their job. Like nobody loves their job. But I was like, but why can't I love my job? Like, why can't I want to get up in the morning and do something deadly? Like, why? I didn't understand it.

So, and I think because I'd felt like it for so long and I was looking at other people who really did love what they did. Like Chloe, for example, you know, she is a therapist and loves it. And I was like, you, like I'd be here with, you know, if we're based on everything and success, which a lot of people's based success just on the monetary and like, you know, what do you have? What have you acquired with money? You know, I would have been on paper better than somebody else.

But with you, like they're saying, oh my God, I love going to work. I tell you about this client I met today. They're just so inspiring and amazing.

And I'd be like, I sat on a call all day with like the HSE about, you know, an email that didn't get sent or something stupid. But I was like, oh, for God's sake. So I was inspired by the people around me as well unbeknownst to them.

Cause I'm like, I want to be able to say, I love my job. That's all I ever wanted. And to feel like I was really good at it because again, I've never felt like I was really good at them because I wasn't in the right jobs.

So I went and applied to be a support worker. And luckily, because I think I had done it in college, I was able to get the job. And it was with sort of a local day service for adults with intellectual disabilities that I had known of because of my aunt.

So she actually had attended it years ago. So I got, I started working there and like the first two days, I was like, it was like, I could breathe. I was so happy.

Oh my, I was like, and again, there was so many things that you would think, you know, would cause like stress. And like a little bit of stress, like as in like, you know, the salary and all that's totally like, you know, all my colleagues were like 22, but I didn't care. I was like, whatever.

My first day, I met a group of adults with, you know, intellectual disabilities, like autism, down syndrome, like all different stuff. And I just was like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to be working with these amazing people who I just loved it.

And I did that then for nine or 10 months. I remember there was one girl I was working with and I was her support worker. And she, you know, her writing ability wasn't great at the time and they were trying to get her into college for a long time.

She wouldn't go. Anyway, I ended up going with her to the college for a couple of times and got her in to go to college on her own to do the writing and all this. And then she got a job and I was doing on the job training with her.

And it was just, I wanted to cry all the time of just joy because I'm like, this is amazing. Like looking at people who need a bit of help, who are perfectly capable in their own right, but just need a bit of help with people who really, really care. And I loved it.

Like, and I was the support worker for a couple of different people and seeing the impact that I was able to have. I was just like, yeah. And like, I was on a laptop for about an hour a week when I had to just log all the stuff that I did.

Like that was it. Even the staff are different because they all are coming from that nurturing place as opposed to often when you're working in the corporate world, people are working from a different place in the roles that I was in. So like that salesy, everything's real fast and flashing.

Like everyone's sort of competing with each other and it's all just very unnatural to me. So, but when then I was in the social care set and everyone is just like, you know, how do we make things better and more sort of collaborative? There's no competition. There's no competitiveness.

And I just loved it. Yeah, just loved it. And then, thank God, I saw the job down on Down Syndrome Ireland.

And of course, you know, I was like, oh my God, that sounds because I, the employment kind of bit, I was like, okay, I've done a good bit of that. And honestly, like I love my job now. Like I- What was the job title you saw? It was Employment Officer with Down Syndrome Ireland.

And what's that? So I work across Ireland with adults with Down Syndrome and I get them into employment pretty much. So I work with employers and adults with Down Syndrome and get them into work. And it's like the best job on the planet.

Like, I love it. It's amazing. Why? Like, do you know anyone with Down Syndrome? Yeah.

They're just the most amazing people on the planet. Yeah. And I just, I get to do, so I work, like I get to kind of create these opportunities and then watch these amazing people go in and just be a part of a team and the impact it has on them, on their friends, on their family.

Like, it's just, it's everything. It's everything. Let's imagine I don't know anybody with Down Syndrome.

Explain to me why it's, what are the nuggets that I'm missing? So I think when you work with anybody that has any sort of intellectual disability, it teaches you a lot about yourself as well. So when you're around somebody like that, you have to be able to adapt to it. And when I'm working with a group of adults with Down Syndrome, they're the most gentle and amazing human beings that you'll be lucky enough.

And I'm lucky enough, obviously, to have somebody in my family that has Down Syndrome, but they have an amazing emotional intelligence that is often like, people can overlook that. But like the emotional intelligence that adults with Down Syndrome have is incredible. Like you might think that you're masking, that you're stressed or having a bad day and they'll call you straight out and be like, what's wrong with you? Or, you know, the honesty, like when you're talking about, like when I'm doing job training or whatever, it's like, no, I don't want to do that.

Like I'm not doing that. It's just, everything is very straightforward.

And you know exactly where you stand, but there's no malice, there's no... We, as humans, we have the left and the right side of the brain, and we tend to work more from the left side. So that's all, what's going to happen next week? Where is it all going to, you know, where am I going to get the money for this? And where am I going to go on holidays? Blah, blah, blah. The right side is more social.

So like the interaction with other people, how other people feel around you and all that kind of a thing. And there's been studies done, and most people with Down syndrome solely live on that right side. So it's all about, are you happy? Am I happy? Are we having a good day today? Who cares about tomorrow? I don't even care about that.

So like, that's the main thing. And when I bring a group of adults together, like to do pre-employment training, I'm always like, okay, lads, like, why do you want to have a job? Like, tell me, what do you want to, why do you want to work? And some of the guys will say, yeah, money to go on holidays or whatever. But the overarching reason is always to make friends, to help people.

Like, that's always the answer. And I would highly do if you brought a group of adults together who don't have Down syndrome, that that would be the answer. So it's just that I would rather be in a room with people like that all day than be in a room with other people that are just out to kind of think of, you know, how they can themselves have a better day.

Whereas with adults with intellectual disabilities at all, and particularly Down syndrome, it's all about is, are we all having a ball? Like, are we all doing a good thing? Are we all working together? And you have to speak a little slower, you have to be more patient, and you have to allow more space for conversation. And not a lot of people are used to that. Like, we speak really quickly to each other, like people who don't have Down syndrome or any intellectual disability.

Like, you know, somebody said before an adult with Down syndrome, she was packing bags in a supermarket, and a lady was sort of kind of hurrying her along. And she said, you people are always in such a rush, like talking about people who don't have Down syndrome. And that's, you know, Dennis McGuire, who's a like world-renowned expert in Down syndrome, came over to Ireland and he told that story and loads of other stories.

But that always stayed with me because it's so true. Like, we're always in such a rush and talk, like I talk really fast when I get like really excited or super happy. And like the guys we like to meet, you're talking too fast, like what? And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.

And I, you know, you're very, you're more aware of yourself and how you present. And I think if we were all more aware of ourselves and how we presented to everybody else, everything would just be so much better. But the fact that I get to be around these incredible people, like every day, like I don't feel like I have a job, like I don't feel like I go to work at all.

Like it's amazing. Now, listen, on some days I definitely do, but it's when I kind of get to go out, like I go to all the interviews with the guys and I do the pre-employment training and then I tend to try and be there on their first day. And I meet the families and stuff around the country at employment days.

And it's just incredible, like it's just incredible. And it's so sad really to think that, you know, Ireland is very antiquated in the opportunities that we have for people with special needs, but it's changing, but at a very slow pace. And the stories that we hear, you know, of people who had someone in their family with Down syndrome who was sort of kept in the house and wasn't, didn't go out anywhere or was sort of kept away.

There's so much of that. And it's very, very sad to see, but it also is very empowering to make sure that that's now changing, you know, and sometimes the impact is more on the family when somebody with Down syndrome gets a job, because, you know, the parents may never have thought that their child was going to get a job or go to a Christmas party or go to a summer party. There's just so many pockets of just pure meaningful joy that happens in one hour in my job than I would have ever gotten working as a Christmas presenter.

And like, sometimes I'm on LinkedIn and I'm like, you know, you see people who, you know, like getting, you know, different jobs and stuff like that. And I'm like, fair play to them. I hope that they're genuinely happy doing that because that is a nightmare to me.

I'm like, I can't imagine doing something like that, whatever it is. But like, I think if I hear somebody saying, like, like if I said, like, do you like your job? Do you like your job? Do I? Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Okay, well then. It's a really interesting project. It's a, it's a really engaging team.

Nice people to work with. The job, the actual job that I'm doing is a challenge to me. So I don't get bored necessarily.

Yeah, yeah. So that, I think if you can say that, and if you're being honest, which I'm going to just take you, you are being honest, then I think you're lucky. Like, that's one of the hardest things.

And like, for some, like people like me, it took me so long to be like, okay, finally, I can say that I like my job. Like, yeah. And I love, it's not even like I like my job.

Like, I love it. Like, I don't feel like I, there's no more of that deep breathing. Like, you know, and Chloe being like, I'm fucking sick listening to you doing that.

Like, now I'm like, okay, this week I get to go to, you know, like Friday, like last week I was in Carton House. I was in like some of the big tech companies in town. So I get to go to these lovely places.

But also I'm going to make sure that they're creating opportunities for other people. That they may not usually have an opportunity to do those things. So everything is meaningful, you know? And like, I think that, but I also think for someone like me, who, you know, like I used to say to people, like when I wanted just to be able to say, like do the calls and things like that.

Like for some people, work is just work. It's like, whatever. Just do it for eight hours and then log off.

And then they get all that fulfillment from other places. Whereas I need it from all the places. Like I can't do the eight hours and then, you know, have it somewhere else.

And I, and like, that's just my personality maybe. But it's not to say that, you know, somebody be like, oh, well I just do the job so I can then have, you know, this lovely life with my kids or my family or the dog or whatever. Whereas for me, I was like eight hours a day for five days is too much for me to sacrifice.

I just think as well, like, you know, with when you lose someone very close to you as well through such a sudden thing. Like I was like, like life is short without being like really like cliche or whatever. But like, I just want to have, like do like every day.

Like I can have the best day that I can. And there's no rules. There are no rules.

There's no rules to say you can't just quit your job. Well, there's, I suppose like to play devil's advocate that there is the, if I don't have a job, I don't have money coming in. Yes.

And like, this was, yeah. Like, I mean, people were saying that to me, but I was like, but I will get another job. You know, it's not like, you know, some people, like if you're confident in your abilities, like I knew I'd get another job.

So I was like, I'm not letting the fear of, but maybe I won't. Like, cause if you live in that kind of a fear of what, it's like leaving like a bad relationship as well. It's like, what if I never meet someone else? Well, you will.

So like, don't like, I just wouldn't stay somewhere like any sort of relationship, job, like a crap party that you're at. Like if it's bad, like don't be in it. I just didn't want to be, to have those, that unfulfilled, because I think when you're unfulfilled in any way, you're going to look for that fulfillment in other places.

You know what I mean? And some of them might be unhealthy or they might just be just wrong. You know what I mean? So I think if you know what you need to do, go and do it rather than trying to avoid it. It's funny, you mentioned the kind of cliches after James dying, how you felt like, you know, live the life in front of you and make the choices that are right for you.

I sometimes think when I think of all that bullshit of like my twenties and not knowing where I was supposed to be and blah, blah, blah. Like one of the best things though, was that I met James and he was like my friend because it was like just a big brother, like, and I have a big brother, but it's nothing like that, you know, like the relationship that I had with him, I'm so grateful for it. And that he was always, and even now, like sometimes I'm like, like when I was going through sort of the transition, if you like, of careers, like that was when I was like, I'd love to be able to talk to him because that was when I know he would have really like championed me because he always did.

I'm like, he really hadn't got, I don't know why he did, but when I was, when he and I were together and then we were sitting beside each other in fits and I know I was the first person he managed and he didn't want to manage me. He thought it was going to be a no case. You know, I just had never met a male that championed me.

You know what I mean? Just out of the pure, like nothing else, just being like, no, you keep going, you're going to be great and helping me, just wanting me to do well. That was, that stays with me even now, you know, like that he would, that that's the way he thought of me. It was really nice.

You mentioned there earlier, the kind of unhealthy habits of your twenties, what have you retained and what have you gotten rid of? Unhealthy, well drinking, I mean, for me is just poison, you know, like absolute poison and I think I've had to let that go. It was great when I was in my twenties, although I think I used it a bit to not what it's meant to be used for. What do you mean? It was, I think due to that kind of unfulfillment, unhappiness type of stuff, like I think I was a bit of a, I think I was a bit of a binge drinker and when I sort of then went and said, okay, I'm unhappy with this aspect and that aspect and kind of looked at, then I just didn't really need it anymore.

I was like, oh, whatever. It's more of a nuisance now than Anthony. If I, the thought of having a hangover, I'm like, oh my God, no.

Did your social circles shrink as a result? Of giving up drink? Yes. Yeah. Funny.

Like at the start, I remember, like at the start was all right. Like I remember going out into town and like, there's only so many Heineken zeroes you can drink. It's not the same at all.

So like, I'd still be going out, but I think the persona was different. Like I am very different when I had a few, like we all are way more outgoing and singing and dancing and whatever, don't care. So that wasn't there anymore.

So I was a bit more like, you know, I want to go home and do my skincare. Like, which is not what anyone cares about when they're drinking. But so then after a while, I think, yeah, you stop getting asked to stuff a little bit more.

But I think at the same time, like I gave up alcohol and then I got into a relationship. So there's a lot of changes going on. So I don't know whether it's all to do with giving up alcohol, but I also didn't want to be around it.

Like now I don't really like being in a pub. I don't like, you know, being around people who are drinking. So I don't know whether it shrunk or I shrunk it.

When I think of Emma Foran, one of the things I think of is your Instagram account 

When I did go to look for your Instagram.

It's gone. What happened? Ah, like I'm always at that, always. Like that's, I, like I always come on and off social media.

Like for a year, like I remember even before Instagram, like everyone was on Facebook and I came off it and people were like, what, oh my God, like how can you not be on Facebook? I don't know, I just, sometimes I, it's, I, I don't think we're meant to know what everyone is doing all the time. I just don't think that that's the, for the, like for the human mind or whatever. I don't think we're supposed to have all that information all of the time.

So sometimes I get a little overwhelmed and I'm like, I don't need to know all these people are doing. All these people don't need to know what I'm doing. Like, and then I find it bizarre when I think about it a little bit.

I'm like, we all have these pages on the internet where we're all putting up photos of ourselves and what we're doing. Like as like an advertisement for what? Like, what are we advertising? What are we trying to? And I was having a conversation with somebody before who has no social media and he was like to me, but why do you have it? This is when I was on it, like actively sort of posting and I was like, watch me. And he was like, like, what, what are you, what, like, what's the point? Like, what are you, and I was like, I couldn't actually give him a good answer.

And I was like, well, I'm just showing people what I'm doing. And he was like, showing people what you're doing? Like, why? And I was like, yeah. So I just sometimes, now sometimes like I change and then I'll go back on and I'll be like, oh, you know, I'll share something, usually something to do with my brother or, you know, someone else who's doing something that I want to sort of show about that I'm like proud of.

But when it's just like me and all my stuff and looking at, like, do I need to look at a picture of you and your fella on the beach on your holidays? Like, no, I don't, really don't. Yeah. When you break it down like that, I think it's, it's very hard to.

To justify. To justify. But then I think, I think it's a human thing of, I think we all just want to fit in.

And the easiest way to fit in is just to do what everyone else is doing. And that kind of storytelling element of being a human of like, that's, that's such a good way of building connections with people. And yeah, you know, like obviously social media is what it is.

It has its positives, has negatives. Yeah. You know, you've probably got a very healthy approach to it to say, I don't like it at the moment.

Yeah. It's only, it is. It's only, it's only some times that I can be like, oh, I just need a break from that.

Like, I just don't need, I think there's more negative sometimes. And if, especially if you're, if you're not feeling great sometimes, you know, when you're going on and you're looking at what everyone else is doing, because everyone portrays the best of the best of the best. And I don't like that sometimes.

I'd love if people were putting up sort of more real, vulnerable connection types, like you're talking about, you know, like I, I love to champion like really positive stuff. Like I love, like, say if I, like the last thing I think I posted was that I passed my driving test, right, which I never thought I'd do at the retreat. But like, I loved doing that because I was like, this is the type of stuff that I'd like.

And then I was like, but am I actually looking for attention a little bit though? But then I was getting my own head and I was like, what am I looking for attention off lots of people to be like, oh, well done Emma, like whatever. Like, I'm just happy. Why do I have to, so this whole thing.

So yeah, I have a very mixed, and most people kind of know that by now because I do it all the time. I'm like, delete, come back on, come back, come on and off. And, but I have very, very mixed feelings about it.

Yeah, because sometimes I think it's that attention seeking thing. And then I'm like people who really know and care about you will probably have your phone number and we'll probably ring you and know what's going on in your life, you know? But I think, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm a bit of a, I'm a bit weird.

I'm a bit fucking strange. I actually think you're probably the furthest from weird of many people I know. You say like doing the stuff that to fit in.

I think that's the, that's the fear. It's that fear thing. Like the not quit.

You don't quit your job to leave another job. You don't, you know, call out your manager for, you know, like, you know, the last job, like my manager, like I was saying, like she was speaking to me really, really bad. And I just was like, you cannot speak to me like that.

Like, I don't care who you are. And I remember my boyfriend was like in the next room, like having a, he's like, you can't say that. And I'm like, I can't say that.

Like, it doesn't matter. Like, we're all just people like it, like all this, you know, I think I just have that. I don't know.

Like, yeah, I mean, it's gotten me definitely in trouble because I can't keep my mouth shut. But also I like have to be true to like myself, you know? It's like, I don't want to just do what everyone else is doing just because that's what everyone else is doing. Because then I'm going to feel like I'm not going to feel good then.

I'm going to, my mental health will be all jacked up, which it has been in the past, you know? Yeah. And I think maybe that's a part of it. That's when you go through a sort of a dark time and you struggle with your mental health a little bit, you don't want to go back to that.

So then you're going to be going every day being like, no, I'm going to do, you know, good things. So I can keep on the right track. Yeah.

And when I first floated the idea of chatting to you on the podcast, I was saying to you that I had seen your posts on LinkedIn and that you, the joy that you were clearly getting from your job and the impact you were having on the adults with Down syndrome and their lives. Your reply was that it had really taken you aback, I think, in that you got really emotional that, I don't know whether it was me, but I presume anybody was saying this to you. And when I'd messaged you first, it wasn't something that I thought would have that impact.

I just thought you were, yeah. Yeah. And that's, I do, and that's true as well.

But I think, like, I'm very emotional. I, and like, I think small things like that, like that did mean a lot for me. And I think it meant a lot for loads of different reasons, I think, because you and I worked together when I was in the very middle of not fucking having a clue what I was doing.

Like, you know, like, and I had a chat with you about, like, maybe I should work in marketing and you were so kind to me about that. And, you know, I think, you know, then obviously there's a connection with you and with James. So that's always just nice just to kind of bring that back up.

But I think the acknowledgement, Gem, maybe as well, made me a little bit like, because it was definitely a journey for me to be where I am now. And not a lot of people know the whole ins and the outs. And I probably haven't even got into it even now.

But like, it was tough. It wasn't easy at all. There was a lot of crying and being very lost and not knowing what I was going to do.

And it sounds like, why would it have that big of an impact on your job? But it was, that was just the way that it manifested for me. So then when you said that, I was like, Jesus, it kind of allowed me to acknowledge it as well. Because I'm not, like, I'm grateful for it, but I also am like, right, get on with it, like the next place, blah, blah, blah.

But then when you said it, I was like, do you know what? Yeah, it is great. Like, this is brilliant, you know? And I just think, yeah, like not a lot of people, like not a lot of people have said that to me, which, and they shouldn't, why would they? You know what I mean? It's not like that, but not a lot of people have just sort of acknowledged it, which is nice. It's just nice when somebody says, you know, I know where you used to be and where you are now, and it looks very different.

When you think of like the person with Down syndrome, who you've taken from kind of like first meeting to, I don't know, six months into their job, like. Yeah. Can you tell me that story? Yeah, so like there's one particular guy, let's say, right, and he had just finished school.

And he was doing like a, so often when adults with intellectual disabilities finish school, they either go to day service or nothing. Because I worked in a day service, I kind of know the way that that kind of works. And it's not always the best place, especially if somebody wants a job.

So this individual, anyway, we started him on a training course.

And like I was there on his first day and it was just amazing, like just so delighted, like when the when the uniform came out, you know, we had the uniform on like everybody else in the name badge and he was beaming, like Emma, take a picture, take a picture. Just like looked like, you know, that inclusive piece, like just looked the same as everybody else on the team was a part of the team. It was just fab.

Like I literally couldn't have been happier that day. And I was like, okay, now you know what you need to do, blah, blah, blah. And I had trained all the staff.

So everybody knew down syndrome awareness training and that's derived from employers. And so it's all we make sure everybody has it. And I just, you know, left left there knowing like that he's just going to do amazing in there and it's going to be great.

And, you know, speaking to his mom and things like that, you know, his mom had recently left her job. So because she was like, he's finished school now. I don't know what he's going to be doing.

So I have to leave my job to kind of care for him or mind him or whatever. Yeah, we had it was in college and different things like that, but she had that fear again because of Ireland. And probably when she had him, they probably had a bit of a, you know, conversation around, you know, what down syndrome looks like and the way that that's handled in Ireland needs to change as well.

But anyway, so with him, he did the training course, got offered a job at the end of it. Absolutely like loved it. And then I ended up getting a different, another job.

So, and I thought he'd great for this other job as well. So anyway, long story short, he now has two jobs that he works in. Absolutely loves it.

One of them, he works, you know, with a company that does all the parking and ticket machines. So he goes around in the van with the lads, does all the parts, like he has a different uniform for them. And like, just is exceptional.

He is an exceptional, exceptional young man. And he is so positive. And so like, yeah, he'll give anything a go and, but I'm very honest as well.

And, you know, I just to see that kind of journey, and I have a million stories like that, you know, and the parents are just like, you know, my God, because I think we, when I look at the guys and when I meet them, I'm sort of taking them. I don't know the backstory. I don't know all the other stuff.

So I'm just like, this is an adult who wants a job, who's very capable and going to go in and do a job. And, you know, I think that's a good thing because, you know, some parents can still want to mind them and the fear of letting them go. And because they're in there, you know, with their team, they don't have anyone in there like a job coach or anything like that.

So they're very much part of that team. So to see that, and also when I hear different stories of, you know, week one, very shy, you know, kind of reserved to now having to crack with staff and like, you know, all this different things, it's just, it's just the most amazing thing. And everything I do, my aunt is at the, at the, you know, the main point of it.

Cause I see her in all and all the guys that I meet. And I, you know, wish that when she was younger, something like this, you know, was, was, was available. Cause I know she'd be great kind of work in different places or whatever.

So to be making a change in Ireland, and I think, you know, people with Down syndrome are their own best advocates, like me sitting here talking about it and going to different meetings and talking about how amazing people with Down syndrome are is great. But when you walk into a shop or a restaurant or whatever and see an adult with Down syndrome working away, that's what you should be saying. Like that's, that's, they're the best advocate for it.